Bell Curve The Law Talking Guy Raised by Republicans U.S. West
Well, he's kind of had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace "accidentally" with "repeatedly," and replace "dog" with "son."

Wednesday, October 06, 2004

VP Debate

OK, Who won the VP debate? The Minnesota Twins won 2-0. But seriously, I wonder what the ratings were because it conflicted with a MLB playoff game. Fox didn't even carry the debate, they carried the game. So FOX news was on UPN (I bet you didn't know that the Star Trek channel was an avenue for FOX propaganda).

The morning after polls show that roughly the same proportion of people think Cheney beat Edwards as thought Kerry beat Bush. My impression of the debate is that Cheney won by sounding reasonable and thoughtful. He didn't drop the F bomb, not even once. And he beat up on Edwards for his frequent absence in the Senate. Which I think is what most people will regard as the most effective part of the debate.

Edwards didn't get completely discombobulated but he did seem a bit out of his league. He missed a chance to score points against Cheney when the VP said that he had never said there was a connection between Iraq and Al Qaida. But on June 18, 2004 (and many other times) Cheney said, "There clearly was a relationship. It's been testified to. The evidence is overwhelming." He added that any assertion that there was no relationship was "irresponsible."


Rolleroid said...

I listened to the entire debate in the car on the way home last night and while it sounded like Cheney was talking with rocks in his mouth it seemed like he was composed and thoughtful.
Edwards seemed like debaters in high school who are so excited because they have lots of answers and retorts but just can't pick one winning argument and advance it - resulting in missed opportunities and a diffuse attack.

Raised By Republicans said...

Ah, the radio vs TV perceptions difference raises its head.

That's not inconsistent with what I thought I saw. But its interesting that you got a different nuance from it.

Bell Curve said...

And he beat up on Edwards for his frequent absence in the Senate. Which I think is what most people will regard as the most effective part of the debate.Okay, except for this. Here's what Cheney said:

Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of Senate, the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session.

The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight.
which, I agree, is a powerful line. Except for two things -- in the four years he's been vice president, he has only presided over the Senate on TWO Tuesdays. And the other thing is that he lied about never having met Edwards before. So you've got to take those points away from him.

I personally thought the debate was too boring to watch. I was happier to see the Yankees lose.

Raised By Republicans said...

I agree that Cheney was wrong about what he said almost all the way through the debate (he even contradicted himself about the connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda within the span of three answers).

But most people won't go check out even with Cheney's encouragment. I'm guessing that most people will just believe Cheney and leave it at that. Certainly his base will believe him. I note however that CBS did a poll of "undecided" voters and THEY think Edwards won the debate.

By the way, when Cheney said, "Go check out fact" (got the name wrong) I said, "Oh Dick, I don't think you want people doin' THAT!"

Bell Curve said...

I disagree. Most people didn't watch the debate, so what matters to them is the post-debate spin. And the spin is likely to be "look at all these lies Cheney told", since it was nonstop. Keith Olbermann has already changed his spin of the debate based on news of the Cheney-Edwards meeting. I think Edwards did the right thing -- don't call Cheney on his lies and let him refute them. Let the media do it.

BearPatrol said...

Watching the debate, I had to grudgingly admit that Cheney "won". I'm sure that Edwards knew that Cheney was lying when he denied that he had claimed an Iraq/Al Qaeda connection, but didn't have an exact date or quote to throw back at him. I didn't believe it when Cheney claimed that Tuesday was the first day that they'd met. Hopefully most of the news services will point these things out when they report on the debate.

I thought that one big missed opportunity for Edwards came during the question about the AIDS epidemic. It was the perfect chance to slam the administration on their abstinence-only sex-ed policy, and denial of the studies that show their ineffectiveness. But Edwards just let it slip by.

Also, in defense of Fox, they aired the debate at 11PM last night. I found this out the hard way when I was trying to watch the Simpsons.

US West said...

It was booooring. I love how edwards took lines, word for word, right out of Kerry's speeches. That was just a little too obvious to be real. Cheney is a trained CEO. That is why he likes his debates sitting down. He can pretend he is a boradroom table.

Part of me wonders if he told a few of those lies on purpose in order to change the story in the news cycle. (The media is so easily manipulated)
He's a saavy pol. I wouldn't put it past him.

An no one has mentioned to little back and forth about Gay marriage, which I thought was interesting simply because for 5 seconds Cheney warmed up and couldn't attack.

Neither guy seemed to really answer the questions. They were both using the opportunity to make their own points. What can you say? It was Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader. I call it a draw. Neither impressed me.

The Law Talking Guy said...

I thought Cheney's job was to show that he was superior to Edwards, what with his resume and all. Cheney failed to do that. He seemed sort of out of it and generally weak. Edwards came off as at least as competent as Cheney. That was a big win for Edwards, I think. He also leveled certain attacks that needed to be made. The polls reflected, by the way, that Republicans watched the VP debate in greater #s than the Dems, indicating that they, too, were counting on a "win."