It's not over yet--there are still many absentee and provisional ballots to count, plus 5% of the precincts--but Proposition 8 probably passed. The current margin in favor of the measure is 52.1%-47.9%, or 5.125 million vs. 4.725 million votes. I'm trying to feel positive that so many millions of Californians voted against this. But mostly I'm just sad.
UPDATE: it's over. California voters approved Proposition 8 by a margin of 52% - 48%. The legal status of 18,000 couples is now uncertain. But my husband and I say we are still married, dammit, no matter what the law says.
Wednesday, November 05, 2008
Prop 8
Posted by Dr. Strangelove at 6:48 AM
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
25 comments:
The California Supreme Court declared this to be unconstitutional once and they can do it again. Fire up the legal challenges.
I'm also sad here in Arkansas. The measure to ban gays/lesbian couples from fostering or adopting passed. A co-worker and his wife foster kids and he told me this morning that 400 kids in the state system currently are affected (and countless future children) and that they literally were torn from their foster homes late last night. Sad sad sad.
2 steps forward, one step back. Florida and Arizona join California in a vote for intolerance and what about Arkansas? Voting to prevent gay couples from adopting?! The argument that I've heard a number of times for this one is that a child needs both a father and a mother... so I assume single parents are next on the chopping block, yes? If they could be honest and just admit that the real reason is that they hate gay and lesbian people... ugh, whatever... the cretins.
On a more practical level, legally, what are the specific ramifications of ths prop? What is required to overturn/circumvent it?
I am especially sad that out of state money (much of it Mormon) seems to have won the day. It's highly amusing/annoying to me that a church whose founders were true pioneers of alternative lifestyles (polygamy*, the united order) decided to get involved.
I'm also sad that I don't get to start pestering my college friend and her girlfriend to get married already.
Let's start the legal challenges, shall we?
-Seventh Sister
*And gosh darn it to heck, while the mainline LDS church outlawed polygamy in 1890, the state of Utah just can't seem to stop those dotty old men from marrying teenagers in Colorado City! But somehow consenting adults are more noxious...
It was LDS money but it was Christian churches that turned out that vote.
I'm very saddened by this. And angry.
Another argument these Bigots for Jesus like to throw around is that is marriage is an institution for the procreation of children. OK, let's ban all marriages with sterile people or post-menopausal women. Hell, lets annul all marriages in which one or both partners are not physically able to have children and have no minor dependents currently living in the same household.
Someone pointed out to me that if you make marriage between a man and a woman only, and it is unconstitutional to discriminate against homosexual couples, then one option is to ban all marriage. LTG: is this a possibility (please say yes!)?
No doubt that Dr S and his husband are still married: there are a lot of people who will agree having been there! Pombat is going to be so grumpy when she wakes up...
I really hope that they Court will over rule it again.
We all know the story of the discussion that went on in my house over this issue. Last night, after a long day at the polls, I came home and saw the results. "Well,", I told my boyfriend, "looks like your side trumped my side." He didn't gloat at all. But he did say, "If you had told me in the 1970s that I would vote for a black man without so much as a thought to his race, I would never have believed you. I was so angry over affirmative action. I was angry at these African Americans with their affros who go so in my face all the time in college that I voted for Reagan, twice. And I just have the same feeling on this Prop 8 thing. I feel again like I am having something thrown in my face that I am not preapred to accept."
What I heard him say is that he knows over time, he will change his mind. Just not today. No one likes to feel forced into things, and they will resist when they do. And I think this is the challenge that No on 8 folks have to meet.
And I think that I also heard my boyfriend say that if the right messenger comes along, someone who has a message similar to the one Dr. S left for him on the blog, he will be able to accept the idea because he will be gently brought to it and be made to feel like he had the power to make a choice.
What my boyfriend doesn't want to admit is that for such a messenger to arise, others have to get in his face. This issue isn't lost. It is just a set back.
"What my boyfriend doesn't want to admit is that for such a messenger to arise, others have to get in his face."
Yeah, that's so true. If it had not been for SF Mayor Gavin Newsom back in 2004, we would not even be having this discussion. And that's another reason why these things take a while. We all know the histories. No one ever said that the fight for civil rights would be short or easy. But it was nice to hope for a while.
First, you are legally married until a court acts to declare your marriage annulled, or to interpret proposition 8 as annulling your marriage.
Second, marriage has never primarily been a state function, but is a matter of public, personal (or religious) commitment. You are still married.
There is a fundamental right to marry announced by Loving v. Virginia that probably cannot be circumvented by banning all marriage.
"marriage has never primarily been a state function"
Tell that to Dr. S's insurance provider.
US West,
Has it ever occurred to your boyfriend that maybe this really isn't about him at all? What influence does anything Dr. S and his husband do have on his life?
"got so in my face?" Really? I really wonder how many African American college students walked up to your boyfriend and "got in his face" saying "Ha! Ha! I'm in college and you can't do anything about it!" Or is he just reacting the way I've heard so many Germans react to Turks on the subways and busses - "They're so noisy and disruptive. Why can't they be quiet and just sit there like good Germans do?"
Oh, I'm WAY beyond grumpy!!!
Questions:
(1) Who can I write to in California to make my thoughts on all this known? I know that they're unlikely to listen to me much, given that I have no vote in your country, but I'm thinking that the more voices they hear being appalled at this, the more chance there is they'll take it seriously.
(2) Who / where's the best person/place for me to rant to in the religious world about this? I want to have a go at a "Christian" and also a Mormon or three. I want to point out just how fecking hypocritical the Mormons are being, and I want to tell them all that I hope they're proud of themselves, because they can be sure as hell that their Lord isn't.
I'd best not get started on the adoption/fostering thing - because clearly the people who just removed children from loving homes, with nowhere better to send them, care only about the children (won't somebody *please* think of the children?! In case it hasn't come over in print, this entire paragraph is sarcasm).
And can everyone do me a favour if you know someone who voted for this hateful legislation?
Ask them if they're proud of themselves. Ask them if they're proud to have voted for a piece of legislation that takes away legally granted rights from people who have never affected their lives. Ask them if they're proud to be on the side of discrimination, segregation, "equal rights" only for the privileged few. Show them news footage of devastated gay people (I'm sure there'll be some), and ask them if it makes them happy.
And please, don't worry about upsetting their feelings - they've just helped do something a whole lot worse.
Dr.S - you and Mr.S are, and always will be, married in our eyes. We were there, we saw the depth of love and emotion between you, we know how real what you have is. And no bigoted backwards law can take that away.
Legal challenges ahoy - let us know if we can help in any way.
Dr. S... I also do not know you but you have my full support, for what it is worth.
A good friend of mine who has been married to his partner for 10 years now (I photographed their ceremony) is stuck living in Florida which also "banned" marriage. He is seriously bummed out and is feeling "surrounded" by intolerant evangelicals. Be glad you aren't stuck in the South somewhere (assuming you live elsewhere, that is).
I should rephrase. The registration of marriages with the state has never been the overriding purpose of getting married.
I'm thrilled, absolutely thrilled that Obama got elected, and I supported him more than I have ever supported any candidate (yes, even Hillary). Many gays and lesbians around the country stood proudly for Obama yesterday.
And Obama did oppose Prop 8. But he only issued a quiet written statemen and tried hard not to call any attention to it. The Obama folks sure did not campaign for us! The "Yes on 8" people were able to splash Obama's face all over their misleading flyer, and the Obama camp never responded. Even today I had to correct an informed voter that Obama really had been opposed to Prop 8... He just never did anything about it!
And that's OK. I get it. I really do. I totally understand why Obama had to be effectively mute on this issue. In fact, considering the circumstances, I approve of his decision to be effectively silent regarding Prop 8. I am much happier to have won on Obama and lost on Prop 8 than if it had been the other way around. (It is unfortunate though that the African-American vote, so vital to Obama's electoral success elsewhere, was also almost certainly the reason Prop 8. narrowly succeeded in California.)
But the next time something like this comes up, I'm just saying that Obama had better be at the stump and on the airwaves, campaigning actively to support what he says he supports when it comes to gay rights. (Oh, and I know Hillary did not stump for us either. No major Democratic voice spoke for us. I'm not trying to be anti-Obama.) And yeah, I have every expectation will be a tremendous ally for gays and lesbians in the White House. I'm happy for him.
But Obama owes us.
Oh, and thanks Bert Q, Pombat, and everyone else for all your support. To be honest, last night was pretty difficult. My husband and I talked until nearly 5:00 am, and trust me, it was not a happy time. So I am not exaggerating when I say I am thankful for the generous support of family, friends, and friendly strangers.
What about strange friends?
I think we're a subset of friends RbR - Dr.S was probably just being polite ;-p
(more hugs for Dr&Mr.S...)
Ok. I'm back. Now I'm 'just' grumpy - a long day at work has taken the edge off a little, I am at least unlikely to immediately thump the first bigot I encounter, although that does depend.
USWest - when it comes to your boyfriend, I'm with RbR: this is not about him. And I've been stewing on this all day, to decide whether the following thoughts were just my knee-jerk extreme anger this morning. Have concluded they're not, because to be perfectly frank, he's sounding like a precious little white boy, not able to cope with "the blacks" or "the gays" wanting to have the same privileged life he was born into (because let's face it, to be born into a group of non-discriminated against people is to be born privileged).
I'm happy to accept that he doesn't yet feel that he can go and actively campaign for gay rights, but what he has done is TAKEN AWAY A RIGHT from a whole bunch of other people who, I'm assuming, have never even thought of damaging his life in such a way.
Could you get him to explain exactly why he said "I feel again like I am having something thrown in my face that I am not prepared to accept"? Because I don't believe that he's having gay marriage "thrown in his face". I don't believe that happily married newlyweds are making a beeline to his door to go "nyeh nyeh, we just got married, just like you can!". I do believe that he needs to grow up and stop being so damned selfish.
How would you feel right now if he'd voted yes to a proposition to take away non-virgin women's right to get married for example? If he tried to justify it by saying he just couldn't deal with it yet, that it was against the sacrament of marriage? Would you be as understanding & forgiving, or would you be giving him hell?
(yes, I understand that he's your boyfriend, and thus there's a natural capacity to cut some slack, but still - there are some viewpoints that if Spotted H spouted would cause me to stop talking to him)
Maybe it's a generational thing - I wasn't in college in the seventies, I was busy being born - but his views, his "angry" reaction to affirmative action back then, his yes on 8 vote now, are making him sound like a total bigot to me.
Ok, I'm clearly still more than 'just' grumpy - someone point me at someone I can use this energy on: Californian political types, religious bigots I can get to online, anywhere that takes open letters...
Thanks again for your support, everyone!
In 2000, Californians approved the exact same wording 60% - 40%. In 2008, Californians approved the wording 52% - 48%. (The original law was found to be unconstitutional, so they had to do a full-blown constitutional amendment this time.) But the trend is clear. Time is on our side. In a few years, we will win back our rights.
At the moment most of us feel angry and hurt, but as that fades we will find the courage to reach out to those who opposed us. We stood tall and demanded our rights--and they sure as hell heard us! Our job now is listen to their concerns and give to them the compassion and understanding they denied to us.
It can be frustrating and may take a while, but it will win out in the end. A wise man drew us all a road map for this sort of thing a long time ago. (There's some pretty good stuff in the bible if you know where to look.)
"There's some pretty good stuff in the bible if you know where to look"
What a pitty most American Christians only read Leviticus.
The only reason prop 8 passed was record high black turnout, and blacks voted 2-1 against the measure for cultural and religious reasons. That was the irony of Obama's victory- it turned out the Yes vote. Even so, it was pretty close. We'll vote again within the next 5 years and it will be a different outcome.
Why wait five years? If minority turnout is the problem, put it on the ballot at the earliest opportunity!
From what I saw in the exit polls, among white voters, education was associated with more opposition to Prop 8. Education is also associated with greater likelihood of voting - especially in second order elections.
I say put a repeal Prop 8 measure on the ballot immediately!
Post a Comment