Bell Curve The Law Talking Guy Raised by Republicans U.S. West
Well, he's kind of had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace "accidentally" with "repeatedly," and replace "dog" with "son."

Friday, July 24, 2009

Burning Down the House

Famed footballer Kirk Herbstreit is fighting with the IRS over a tax deduction. It seems that he donated his house to the local fire department for the purpose of having them burn it down and "practice" on it. Then he rebuilt a (nicer) house for himself on the same property. The donation was of the structure of the house, not the property, so when it burned away, he was free to rebuild. Fire departments do not care, but the IRS does. The IRS is not so sure that this is really a $300,000 charitable donation (as claimed) or a homeowner who wants to put up a new house pulling a fast one by effectively hiring the fire department to demolish the old house free- not just free, but with a tax benefit! I can see both sides of the argument.

On the one hand, it seems to me that where the purpose of the donation is to secure a larger benefit for oneself (the removal of an unwanted house) the deduction should not be available. I think this for the same reason taht the law requires, when donating to public radio, that you must subtract from your claimed deduction the value of any premiums you received. You all do this, right? If the value of the benefit exceeds the value of the "donation," no deduction is allowed.

On the other hand, the donation is (1) of value to the fire department (2) is the sort of donation to a fire department that the charitable deduction was meant to encourage. Also, it is odd to inquire too deeply into whether a person seeking a deduction for a charitable donation made the donation more to be rid of the item than for the benefit to the donee.

My conclusion, if I were asked, is to deny the deduction. Absent contrary evidence, I think we can presume that the donation of the structure to the fire department would never have been made unless the fire department intended to burn it down. Imagine if the fire department chose to live in it instead - would you have an action against them? While donations can be made for specific purposes, the primary purpose is never so that it benefit the donor. After all, a donation to you for the purpose that you give it back to me is not a donation.

I mention this not only because it is funny, but because I think it's important to note that this is what the law does. It poses these questions. When Sonia Sotomayor said that appellate courts are where policy is made, this is what she was talking about. And for this I want someone who has the ability to think big-picture about these things. I don't want a damned umpire who can't see outside of his small box.

81 comments:

Raised By Republicans said...

OK, LTG. First, what are you doing reading the Columbus Dispatch? ;-)

Second, I agree with your analysis here. Perhaps the deal that gets struck will be something where Herbstreit gets to deduct a much smaller amount (say the amount of money he spent on alternative accommodations while waiting for the house to be rebuilt).

Third, I would bet that the fire department - off the record - encouraged him to do this.

Herbstreit has a reputation among Buckeye fans as a "really nice guy." He's not as loved as figures like Archie Griffin, Jim Tressel or the late Woody Hayes but he's probably the best LIKED former player. Even the high performing pro-ball guys are respected and applauded but not really LIKED they way Buckeye fans like Herbstreit. And it's always been like that going back to when he was a mediocre quarterback in the 80s and early 90s.

Dr. Strangelove said...

According to the article LTG linked, the fire department in that area has welcomed such donations for twenty years. About thirty homes have been donated to and burned by that fire department. The practice is not unique to that area either. After accepting that practice for many years, the IRS first challenged it in 2004. (Two homeowners are being challenged.) The article also notes:

Typically, the city uses a donated home for a month. Police officers simulate hostage situations and other emergencies. Firefighters practice search-and-rescue drills and what to do if a wall collapses. Investigators learn how to determine arson.

Before the training, homeowners remove asbestos and roof shingles. When training is complete, homeowners clean up and haul away what's left of the house.


Not surprisingly, the IRS instructions regarding charitable donations Publication 526 do not appear to directly address this question. But two rules seem suggestive to me. First, you generally have to donate the one's entire interest in property to receive any deduction. Second, the "value" is the fair market value of item contributed at the time of contribution.

Since the fire department did not have the right to occupy the house beyond one month, it seems reasonable to conclude that the homeowner did not in fact donate his entire interest in the house. So if the homeowner wants to claim a deduction, they will have to find something of value that they donated completely. I see a couple ways of doing this. One take is that the homeowners effectively leased the home to the fire department for free for a month--more of a $3,000 than $300,000 donation. Another option, perhaps, is that they donated to the fire department a complete house, but one which was due to be burned down in a month's time. I suspect the "fair market value" of a house scheduled to be destroyed in one month is rather diminished.

Raised By Republicans said...

I just spoke to my parents who live in the same neighborhood. They confirmed the story and the elements Dr. S. highlights. They said that this is standard practice and has been for decades. The IRS chose Herbstreit to "make an example of" because of his high profile but apparently they could have picked on any of a number of local home owners who do exactly the same thing.

Anonymous said...

I think this kind of donation should be disallowed all together. It is voluntarily polluting the air with toxins, it cost the municipality for the training exercise, perhaps more than the traditional training methods, and it cost jobs...i.e., a contractor coming in to demolish the property in a traditional sense, with a bulldozer and /or a crew. This is an obvious obfuscation of the tax code.

WW

Raised By Republicans said...

WW (have you posted on this blog before?),

Can you enlighten us as to how a small community would be likely to train its fire fighters and fire inspectors? You seem to be rather expert on the alternatives.

With regard to one of your points, I don't see how you can train fire fighters without lighting something on fire and that will surely release toxins into the air.

Anonymous said...

Counties pool their recruits to do live training exercises...states everywhere have as many as 8 to 12 counties participate in live fire drills for training. But one real alternative to this kind of training is with computer simulation.
Even with the preparations and precautionary measures, using an acquired structure can still be very dangerous. The fire is controlled, but that doesn't mean it's any less real. From 1994 to 2004, 99 firefighters were killed during training, some of these in live fire training. Statistics like these led fire instructors to adopt a new, safer method for live fire training: simulated structural fire buildings.

Simulated structural fire buildings are far more advanced and rely on computers to control the fire. These burn buildings' computers control built-in fire-producing devices that run on propane and natural gas, and use a non-flammable aerosol to synthetically create real smoke. If there's an emergency, the burn building has systems to extinguish the fire and extract all of the smoke with the push of a button. The computer also lets the instructor choose in how the fire will burn and at what temperature. The computers are capable of simulating fire scenarios for different occupancies in the building, residential or otherwise. They can even simulate inflamed furniture, such as burning sofas or tables.

Engineers design these burn buildings with a variety of materials, including masonry, concrete and metal. The walls and ceilings of the building are covered with heat-resistant tiles with built-in sensors to keep track of the fire's intensity. The roof contains "chop-out panels" made of wood, which gives students the opportunity to learn how to properly ventilate a burning house and deal with major burns to the building's structure. When the training crew applies extinguishing agents, the building has sensors that can tell which one the crew applies and whether or not it has been appropriately applied. The sensors communicate to the main computer how to respond to the crew's method. If a crew inappropriately applies an agent, it will simulate a real-world response. And this is one alternative to putting toxins in the air, risking lives and is a reasonable alternative for a small community. Another on is, send them to California during fire season, a great way to real, live experience. Loan them to some Chicago Fire stations to train...one of the most fire hazard laden cities in the country. There are many alternatives for a small community and I am not an expert on alternatives, I just know when to call bullshit, bullshit...you really were RBR.

WW

Raised By Republicans said...

"There are many alternatives for a small community and I am not an expert on alternatives, I just know when to call bullshit, bullshit...you really were RBR."

I'm sorry, was I advocating a particular position that offended you or something? All I was doing was reporting what my parents (who live in the same town mentioned in the original story) said they heard through the neighborhood grape vine. I don't see any reason for you to insult me.

In any case, the high tech alternative certainly sounds safer. I'm not sure how all these chemical fires and aerosols would be better for the environment though.

But it also sounds expensive. The city Herbstreit lives in is not that big. It's a medium sized suburb of a major city. This suburb is also an inner ring suburb so it doesn't have a lot of open land on which to construct one of these training facilities meaning they would probably have to contract with a neighboring city (probably Columbus) for training. I'd bet they figured this option of burning a real house was cheaper - at least in the short run for them.

Anonymous said...

Didn't mean to offend or insult...what I was referring to with the 'bullshit' comment, is somebody claiming a charitable donation when in fact, they are using the city to demolish their old home, so they don't have to pay for it and then get a tax deduction for it, meaning all the rest of us pay for it. You have to factor in all of the cost on society when analyzing these issues and as I mentioned, counties pool their resources for this kind of training and get state funds and well as local funds and if they don't, then the state and local politicians need to legislate funds for this purpose to ensure the safety of the firemen in training and the citizens of the community.
The 'you were RBR' was typed, tongue in cheek', but when read, it doesn't come off that way, I can certainly see that...WW

Anonymous said...

There are plenty of tax deductions that aren't fair.

Rather than pick on the third rail of American tax policy (the homeowners deduction), consider the donation of clothing. People often aggressively deduct the value of donated clothing, especially since the audit rates are pretty low for that kind of deduction (especially since the value per piece is usually pretty low). Fair? Not generally. Popular? You betcha.

My tax-deduction ire is reserved for less than scrupulous small business owners who deduct every meal, every family vehicle, and the mobile phone bill of each relative as a "business expense" and are rarely audited.* Us wage slaves don't get nearly that kind of break.

I wonder if the IRS would have backed off if the deduction had been smaller.

-Seventh Sister

*And spare me the crabbing about how small business owners are so put upon, blah, blah, blah.

Dr. Strangelove said...

"There are plenty of tax deductions that aren't fair."

Yep, I think 7th Sister hit the nail on the head here. While I believe one should always attempt to apply the spirit of the law--the tax code is the one area where I draw an exception. There is nothing fair about it. It has evolved (clearly no evidence of intelligent design here!) into a complicated accounting shell game, and so you have to play it like that. If the law says X is deductible, then you take it, even if it makes no sense. Because that's how the rich play it... So that's how we have to play it too. That's as fair as it gets in taxes.

Dr. Strangelove said...

We need to have a talk about corporate taxes sometime. As a non-lawyer and non-businessman, I must admit I am still somewhat confused about the concept of a "business" in American tax law.

For example, it is my (crude) understanding that a business is taxed on its net receipts rather than gross receipts--its profits. And corporate profits are taxed at a lower rate than personal income. So if I'm running a successful family business out of my home, can I take a tiny salary and just claim the rest of my income as "profits" that get the low tax rate? If I'm running an unsuccessful business, can I take the losses from that business as a tax deduction on my personal income?

If that is the case... Shouldn't I set up "Dr. Strangelove Industries" right now?

Raised By Republicans said...

I was audited once because the IRS computer thought it was odd that someone my age (at the time) was claiming the education tax credit. I dutifully went in with my records and the IRS discovered that I had over paid and THEY OWED ME $500. I didn't even ask if they validated parking, I just said, "thank you" and got the hell out of there before they changed their minds.

Pombat said...

Dr.S - regardless of the tax benefits or otherwise, you should definitely set up "Dr. Strangelove Industries" right now anyway! Love it :-)

I've never quite understood the tax code in any country I've lived in to be honest, particularly the deductions bit - they're all way too convoluted. I have always thought though, that if you're donating something *purely* to be able to deduct it, then it really doesn't count as a donation in my book. Like when companies make charitable donations - generally nothing to do with wanting to help the charity, and everything to do with wanting a tax break of some sort and maybe some good PR too.

In this case, whether it's legal to do so or not, I don't think it's moral/right for him to claim a deduction for the 'donation' of his house - there's no way in hell he would have 'donated' it had he not wanted it demolished for free.

The Law Talking Guy said...

1. So if I'm running a successful family business out of my home, can I take a tiny salary and just claim the rest of my income as "profits" that get the low tax rate?

Yes and no. The "income" in this case must remain with the corporation, and cannot be commingled with your personal assets. In other words, you can't spend it on yourself. People do this all the time as a means of saving money.

2. If I'm running an unsuccessful business, can I take the losses from that business as a tax deduction on my personal income?

Yes, you can, on Schedule C, if it is a sole proprietorship (not a corporation). I think you are allowed 5 years of losses, since new businesses are expected to make losses. This also happens all the time. I've done it, actually (for just a few hundred bucks).

But you have to be running some kind of business. As a lawyer, I have a "profession" and a license that makes it easy to try.

Also, the losses have to be real, in other words, you have spent and lost the money.

What people do often is start a business and deduct portions of the home, car, cell phones, and other things. This is a RED FLAG for audits, however, and is increasingly dangerous unless you can really document it. If you try it, get a lock for the "home office" door and segregate cell phone expenses.

3. I am a lawyer, but not a tax specialist. Devil is in the details. Caveat lector.

Anonymous said...

In the mid 1800's, the Supreme Cort gave corporations the same rights as an individual citizen of the US...and this is a major problem and why corporations have taken over everything...they were given the rights to do so. Dr. SL, there are several corporate structures available depending on what kind of tax situation you are in or anticipate being in. Sub Chapter S, allows you to take profits income without double taxation...in a C-corp, if your company earns money, the profits are taxed and then you pay yourself from the profits, they would be taxed as well, a double hit on the income. There is the Limited Liability Corp but I am not familiar with the advantages or disadvantages. Corporate veils typically protect the individual from being sued for his or her personal assets, hence many assets are titles in the individuals name, i.e., real estate...and if you own real estate, it should never be in your corporation, creates a big estate transfer problem...rent the office space from yourself essentially. WW

The Law Talking Guy said...

"In a C-corp, if your company earns money, the profits are taxed and then you pay yourself from the profits"

That's for DIVIDENDS. The SALARY is deductible to the corporation, before profits. You pay taxes on your salary. Dividends are now barely taxed at all anyway.

Anonymous said...

As my beloved first car was just hauled away by a nice, burly tattooed man to be auctioned off for the good of public radio, let me explain the charitable deduction thing a little bit.

Honestly, most of my rationale for donating the car is the tax deduction. Also, to get it out of my driveway. Sure, I could have given it (in more classic charity) to a person I know who needs a car. And I can think of at least one.

Here's why I didn't just give it away to somebody else. There are serious problems with the car (specifically, the transmission) and it is quite old. I would feel awful if I gave (or sold it) to a friend who then got hit with a big repair bill. My friends would probably be better off buying a better used car from somebody else.

To my mind, the highest and best use of the car is to salvage it and depending on how much it brings in, have that money donated to the radio station.*

The tax deduction is a good incentive to give to worthy charities, especially stuff that then re-enters the market and is sold to people who might actually want a 10-year-old Saturn.

The value of these deductions is fairly small to the average working stiff, but again, it's very popular.

-Seventh Sister

*Pombat, you are probably aware that public radio in the US is not state-supported (apart from its non-profit status and a small portion of its operating expenses). Listeners are the main source of revenue, and while I donate money each year, the car donation amount probably makes up for the years I was too broke/lazy to do so.

The Law Talking Guy said...

Think of the charitable donation this way. Wouldn't it be good public policy if the Government said, "I'll give $1 to you for every $4 you give to a charity of your choice. This way the government isn't picking winners and losers, nobody has to waste money applying for grants, and the due diligence in selecting the right institutions is done by private persons." That's the real issue. It's a very effective mechanism for inspiring charitable donations to non-profits. Government support for the arts and charities is low in the USA, bu the actual amount spent rivals any other country in the world.

Actual charitable spending is about $300 billion in the USA. You think the feds would pony up $75-$100b on their own? Individuals gave 3/4 of this money. Corporations gave about 5%. Only 1/3 of it goes to religious institutions. It is also fairly stable. Apparently (these figures from below) the 2008 donations were down 2% from 2007, not nearly as big a drop as one might have expected.

http://www.philanthropyjournal.org/news/giving-stumbles-2008

As public policy, even if you subtract most of the $$ for religious institutions (some does pass through to more traditional charitable work), that's $200+billion for charity, most from individuals. It's a little over 2% of GDP. Not nearly enough, but far more than the govt would do on its own.

Raised By Republicans said...

The comparison isn't between $300 billion and nothing. The comparison is between $300 billion and whatever the donation rate would be without the tax deduction (certainly not zero) PLUS the effect the additional tax revenue would have public spending by the government. That's a more complicate comparison. I don't how it would pan out but it is less of a slam dunk that tax deductible donations are the best and most efficient way to provide funding for charities and public services.

Pombat said...

In the UK, if you donate over a certain (low) amount (a few quid I think), and give your postcode [zip code], you can tick a box which allows the charity to claim back the tax, meaning that the money the charity makes from your donation is larger than the donation itself. You don't get anything monetary*, but the warm fuzzy feeling is nice, so it seems like a good scheme to me :-)

*actually, you may also be able to claim, but I have no idea - I've never looked into it, as that kind of thing doesn't occur to me generally.

Dr. Strangelove said...

"The comparison isn't between $300 billion and nothing."

Right. Actually, LTG did not make that comparison either. What he wrote was that the federal tax deduction netted a (partial) matching contribution of about $75-100 billion from the federal government. In other words, LTG assumed that, on average, people increased their charitable contributions by the exact size of their tax deduction, in effect shifting the dollars from the Feds to the charities.

A white paper by the The Center on Philanthropy at Indiana University, the source of the data in the article LTG cites, indicates that LTG's estimate is probably dead on:

"Many studies have shown that changes in tax rates have an impact on itemized charitable deductions claimed on tax returns. Giving also changes with changes in income. Auten et al. (2002), in particular, examine the long-term (persistent) effects of changes in tax rates and suggest that if there were no deduction at all for charitable gifts, itemized giving would eventually drop between 25 and 36 percent.

The only concern I have is that I think a lot of us probably "pad our resumes" a bit for the IRS when it comes to charitable contributions. I confess that I probably over-estimate the amount I donate... At the very least, I make darned sure not to under-estimate it. I tried to see whether the figures reported were self-reported figures compiled by the IRS or whether they represented the value received actually reported by charities. I could not find that information.

Raised By Republicans said...

My mistake.

The Law Talking Guy said...

The "resume padding" Dr.S. suggests w/r/t the deduction is probably not a big deal. For amounts over $500, you must have a receipt if audited and a statement from the charity (a canceled check does *not* suffice). I doubt such small amounts really matter in the overall calculations.

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