Bell Curve The Law Talking Guy Raised by Republicans U.S. West
Well, he's kind of had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace "accidentally" with "repeatedly," and replace "dog" with "son."

Monday, April 20, 2009

Impeach Bybee!

The New York Times has called for Judge Bybee, a Federal Judge on the 9th Circuit, to be impeached. It's particularly annoying that this piece of fascist filth is on the 9th Circuit because that is the Circuit most known for progressive rulings (right, LTG?). Two days later this call has been picked up by a senior Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, Jerry Nadler (D-NY). Nadler is the Chair of the Constitution subcommittee.

We can't impeach Bush or Cheney now that we've already voted their party into oblivion. And it may not be practical to prosecute these bastards. But we can impeach this asshole, Bybee, that no one has heard of! He's a member of the F-ing Mormon Church too! I bet he contributed money to Prop Hate too.
(upon correction from friends I have edited the above drunken statement in an attempt to direct my ire against the organizatin rather than the faith).


Dr. Strangelove said...

I strongly agree that Bybee should be impeached, and I am pleased that the NY Times and a few key Democratic Congressmen are not letting the matter drop.

But I feel it is wrong to speak about Mormons that way. And besides, Bybee's professed religion is not relevant.

Raised By Republicans said...

Hey, when they stop being the largest institution for theocracy in this country, I'll back off... until then... F the F-ing LDS.

Raised By Republicans said...

As Woody Allen said in Manhattan when talking about Nazis, "I'm a bigot, but for the left."

Raised By Republicans said...

Dr. Strangelove said...

I have been known to speak angrily of the "F-ing Vatican," but I would not call someone an "F-ing Catholic." It is not anti-Semitic to criticize Israeli policies. Institutions and people are different. It is appropriate to mock the LDS for supporting hateful causes, but it is wrong to defame Mormons in general.

Pombat said...

I'm with both of you, on different bits of what you're saying:

Impeach Bybee - yes! Definitely! Through the wringer in the worst possible way please.

However, not cool to have a go at Mormons via him - fine to say "he's a Mormon, meaning he's meant to follow the general teachings of love thy neighbour etc, he's a hypocritical asshole for what he's done here, and an even bigger one if he joined in with the Prop Hate stuff too", not fine to blast Mormons (the individual people, some of whom are very nice, progressive, etc) generally. And I say this as someone who absolutely exploded about the LDS involvement in Prop Hate (think I did so on here too - I hope it was clear that my anger was directed at those members who supported Prop Hate, due to their support of it, as opposed to their religion).

I do still like that Woody Allen line though :-)

What effect could impeaching Bybee have on the Obama administration? Is it something that Obama's going to want to back, or something he's going to leave someone else to do? And what are the odds of Bush, Cheney et al being pulled up on international war crimes charges?...

Raised By Republicans said...

In vino veritas....Drunk blogging strikes again....Perhaps I was a little harsh in my alcoholic haze.

That said, I don't care a whit about Mormon religious beliefs. I don't care if they want to believe that Gays have no civil liberties or people of color have darker skin because God has cursed them. I don't care if they believe that every Mormon man will rule his own planet in the after life and all his women folk will be there to serve him. I don't even care if they believe in magic underwear. I do care that as an organization the Church of Latter Day Saints is one of the most powerful anti-democratic forces in this country. And through its strict enforcement of hierarchy within the church combined with the practice of tithing, its members share equally in the guilt of its anti-democratic activities.

LDS interference in the politics of the state of Utah routinely violates the principle of the separation of Church and State. Over its 150+ year history, the LDS has maintained its own military force and paramilitary police forces which its leaders used to bully and intimidate "gentiles" who had the misfortune to live nearby. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was a brutal mass murder ordered by LDS leaders. Since Utah's admittance to the Union, the LDS policies have been less violent but no less totalitarian in their goals.

What's more LDS leaders both local and national regularly enforce ideological compliance among their flock. You cannot be a Mormon in good standing unless you support the LDS political positions on social policies. The LDS is a theo-fascist organization. I consider being a member of it different from being a member of the KKK or NAZI party only one of degree.

USwest said...

I totally agree with RBR's less drunken blogging comments, including on the LDS. I could tell many, many stories about crooked Mormons. THe bottom line is that they fuck you while smiling and telling you what fine values they have. They only care about themselves and the meddle to dangerous levels in all organizations of which they are a part, including, mind you, certain parts of the military. I can't tell you all the stories here in the blog, but let's just say that I know a military organization whose entire pay system for its 4000 employees was fucked with by a Mormon provost whose only goals were to make himself a "chancellor", to become an SES, and to get his Mormon friends promoted and placed in high levels of the organization. You cold argue that he broke the law, ran an elaborate con job, and managed to get his title. However, those 4000 employees today have paid dearly in lower than deserved salaries.

I never trust a Mormon. And these people are deep in our government. These are the same people who would cut your head off if you refuse to pay a toll to cross "their country".

So like RBR, I am bigot for the left. And as a non-practicing Roman Catholic, I know the same used to be said about us. But that also means I am qualified to be very suspicious of church organizations that look and act like min-governments.

The Law Talking Guy said...

Thank goodness Bybee isn't a Jew.

Raised By Republicans said...

Well, Judaism is barely organized at all. So as a religious organization its a poor basis for theocracy.

As for the Catholic Church, it's political positions are often far more diverse. Liberation Theology and other leftist religious movements have played an, at times, prominent role in the Roman Catholic Church. They are admittedly not in power now but they do exist. I can't think of any equivalent movement within the LDS.

And the Catholic Church hasn't had the direct temporal power over a territory like the LDS has over Utah since they lost control of the Papal States back in the 19th century.

Again, this isn't about faith. IF all the LDS was was a church like any other but with some fairly quirky beliefs there would be no problem. My resentment (and I suspect US West's too) of the LDS is based on the actions of the organization not the spiritual beliefs of its members.

Dr. Strangelove said...

I am astounded that anyone on this blog would willingly ascribe to any form of bigotry. Since when did it become acceptable in liberal circles to hate someone because of their religion?

As a counterpoint to what USWest wrote, let me add I have known many good Mormon people including close friends, colleagues, and even a college roommate.

USwest said...

Lucky you, Dr. S. I haven't. I am sorry to disappoint you by admitting to liberal bigtory. But this also means I am abiding by the liberal value of self-examination and honesty. We all have our prejudices. I'm not proud of it, but I will admit it. This doesn't mean I treat mormon co-workers with disrespect. I just keep my distance.

I have no issue with their beliefs. But I do with their organization because they affect my rights and those of other citizens and they threaten the primacy of my government. I've seen that up close and personal. There is a culture there that I cannot abide by. I have the same, problem, by the way, when any group offers special treatement to its insiders while ignoring the rules that are meant to prevent such favortisim, or when any group thinks it is above the law, or that somehow they have a right to screw everyone else for their own benefit.

We criticized Evangelicals on this blog as well for messing in politics. We griped about their grip of the justice department and the White House.

The difference is that some groups are much more insideous about their influence and power than others.

If anything, we are consistent.

The Law Talking Guy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Raised By Republicans said...

For the record Dr. S. I don't care about the spiritual aspects of Mormanism. I do care about - and deeply resent - the political activities of a highly centralized, hierarchical and well funded organization with an openly theocratic agenda.

Also, Dr. S. I'm sincerely curious to hear about your close Mormon friends and what they think of the political agenda pushed by their church. Do they object to it? Is there a mechanism for them to effectively express their dissent within their church? Is there something resembling democratic structures within the Church?

USwest said...

LTG: How do you deal then, with someone who actively participates in Anti-Zionist or other types of political "opposition" groups? What about someone who is a member of the KKK, or Virginia White Pride? How about the Church of Scientology? How about the Communist Party? Show me a man's affiliations, and I will tell you about him.

It works both ways. Show me a member of the NAACP or the American Civil Liberties Union and I can also tell something about that person.

This gets back to the old discussion we had a while about Obama and if you could judge him based on his preacher. Some of us said no, others of us yes. What made the difference was Obama's public disavowal of that preacher and his movement away from that particular church.

I am wary of Mormons because of their affiliation with an organization that I am deeply suspicious of.

I will be nice, polite, kinds, tolerate, non-prejudical in my actions. But I will not become that person's friend easily. And the more active, the less likely I am to become friendly. Same holds true of people affiliated with similar types of groups.

Dr. Strangelove said...

USWest brings up a crucial point about affiliations.

It is perfectly fair to judge someone by the affiliations they choose, especially political ones, but we must not judge people by the affiliations they acquire at birth or through marriage. I take it as an article of faith that we must consider nationality and religion to be uncorrelated with the content of one's character. A long and terrible history of racial and religious oppression teaches us that we must make exceptions in those cases--that we must approach those particular forms of affiliation with a blank slate rather than a pre-judgment.

Despite this, I confess I still have my share personal prejudices. I just don't defend them.

There are gray areas, of course. Insofar as there is personal choice associated with an affiliation, that affiliation is correspondingly revealing of personal character. For example, as no one is really born into the Church of Scientology, being a Scientologist reflects more of a personal choice. Similarly, someone who chooses to become involved in Mormon political activities demonstrates something of his or her character by that action. Same goes for joining the KKK and the Communist Party.

Raised By Republicans said...

Choice and Churches is an interesting thing. If your Church has several preachers some of whom you disagree with and some of whom you don't or if your preacher has evolved over time, I can see someone belonging to a church that doesn't seem to fit with their personal views.

But if you belong to a church that has a monolithic organization with a strong top-down organizational structure (like the LDS or Roman Catholic church), then you may be born into a church with which you disagree. In that situation, we find many people leaving the church when they become adults. US West is an example. The concept of the "recovering Catholic" is fairly common. LTG's church is full of former Catholics who didn't like the direction their church was going. The LDS also has a lot of people leaving it even as it grows rapidly. It also practices shunning. I've met a few people who left the LDS and/or were "shunned."

I don't think there is anything to a kind of ethnic predisposition of people born into the Mormon church towards this or that practice or politics. But I do think that the Mormon Church as an organization is nefarious. All people have the choice to belong or not, even if they are born into it. And the LDS has the ability to kick out people that don't adhere to the accepted theology/ideology/life style of the LDS leadership (and does so). So the result is that if you are a member in good standing of the LDS, we know A LOT about what you believe or at least what you are willing to go along with to get along.